Dynamic 4CC with mods?

[Bohnzy]

I really like your design but I'm a fan of ribbons for the top end. So...what would be the fee to design this configuration using the Zaph's, the current Tang's and a Fountek NeoCD2.0 true ribbon?
My goal is a center speaker worthy of carrying the 80% of the HD sound to fill a 35x30 theater, (my screen is 70" x 124") that won't mush out with higher volumes and can shine with Led Zep/Rush and stand with Grand Funk/Montrose but not peak out for Iron Man and Hulk.
I'm running the Klipsch R-35 series theater system DefTech Subs (10" x 2) and I also add my up-dated ESS Tempest's (with air-motion tweeter) to the front on the "B" channel. This is powered by Yamaha HTR-6180.

Thanks in advance for your response,

[Clearwave]

I really like your design but I'm a fan of ribbons for the top end. So...what would be the fee to design this configuration using the Zaph's, the current Tang's and a Fountek NeoCD2.0 true ribbon?
My goal is a center speaker worthy of carrying the 80% of the HD sound to fill a 35x30 theater, (my screen is 70" x 124") that won't mush out with higher volumes and can shine with Led Zep/Rush and stand with Grand Funk/Montrose but not peak out for Iron Man and Hulk.
I'm running the Klipsch R-35 series theater system DefTech Subs (10" x 2) and I also add my up-dated ESS Tempest's (with air-motion tweeter) to the front on the "B" channel. This is powered by Yamaha HTR-6180.

Thanks in advance for your response,

I can do pretty much any design, but let's look at a couple things that you may have not thought about yet. First, Zaph's driver is more of a midrange driver. It has limited xmax and rising distortion below 100hz with not much surface area. The Dayton RS150s is better down low because it has more surface area and a bit more xmax at a low cost. The Dayton RS180 doesn't need that much more volume than the RS150, and has even lower distortion, greater Sd, and more excursion capabilities. Where the Zaph driver shines is in the midrange because of its very nice motor.

So for high volumes I really recommend the 4CC in its current configuration. Now, the logical thing to do would be to take the 4cc and replace the tweeter with a ribbon if you want a ribbon design. I did a custom design for someone over at htguide.com that used dual 8" RS225s, dual W4 1337s, and the Fountek Neo CD3.0. That would definitely be a design to take a look at. Also, it wouldn't be too hard for me to make a suggestion if you wanted a quad of RS180s instead.

Now, all that said, the Xt25 has a very airy and detailed top end. You might wonder whether or not you really "need" that ribbon given the added benefits of a lower crossover point and superior power response the 4CC in its current form provides.

Regards,

Jed

[Bohnzy]

Hello and thanks so much for the QUICK reply! I'm interested in reviewing the custom you described that you built for the HT guy but I don't know how to get that info or even how to search for it on that forum (I am a member). Would searching for the driver model work you think?
It would be great if you had links to the custom designs you've invested your precious time into for us folks with that "need to know" bug in their hat. I've never heard the tweeters and have no where close that I could for that matter.
So...I will do more searching and "re"-searching basing most of both on your recommendations which seemed logical and sound, pun intended.
Again, thanks for sharring your knowledge and insights.
Bohnzy

[Clearwave]

Hello and thanks so much for the QUICK reply! I'm interested in reviewing the custom you described that you built for the HT guy but I don't know how to get that info or even how to search for it on that forum (I am a member). Would searching for the driver model work you think?
It would be great if you had links to the custom designs you've invested your precious time into for us folks with that "need to know" bug in their hat. I've never heard the tweeters and have no where close that I could for that matter.
So...I will do more searching and "re"-searching basing most of both on your recommendations which seemed logical and sound, pun intended.
Again, thanks for sharring your knowledge and insights.
Bohnzy

That custom design is at htguide.com in the mission accomplished section called Frodaddy's Statement Center. IIRC. Let me know if I can help you as you review other designs.

[Bohnzy]

Hi, I've reviewed the Frodaddys center and like the design but I'm mor taken with your 4cc design. A couple of questions that I have are;
1st; Is the 4cc a ported box? It's not clear from any of the reading I've done. If so, what are the distance/clearance requirements? My screen is painted on the wall with 18" from the bottom of the screen to the floor so the center sits on the floor tilted slightley up toward the listeners whom are located 16 feet from the screen and spread out across about 20 feet left to right so...I'm concerned about pulling the speaker out toward the listening positions effecting the folks on the end of the rows. Though I'm sure it would be an improvement anyway.
2nd; would there be a major change in the x-over to deploy a ribbon tweeter? As a secondary question, do you have an opinion/recommendation for the best ribbon to enhance this arangement for wide-dispersal for the top end, or do you believe the standard dome would be best suited for this?
I've already spoke with a friend of mine about using his shop to build this and he too is interested. He is just now setting up his cinema and was enthused with the info I shared about your designs. This is sounding like a perfect Christmas present for the family to me

[Clearwave]

Hi, I've reviewed the Frodaddys center and like the design but I'm mor taken with your 4cc design. A couple of questions that I have are;
1st; Is the 4cc a ported box? It's not clear from any of the reading I've done. If so, what are the distance/clearance requirements? My screen is painted on the wall with 18" from the bottom of the screen to the floor so the center sits on the floor tilted slightley up toward the listeners whom are located 16 feet from the screen and spread out across about 20 feet left to right so...I'm concerned about pulling the speaker out toward the listening positions effecting the folks on the end of the rows. Though I'm sure it would be an improvement anyway.
2nd; would there be a major change in the x-over to deploy a ribbon tweeter? As a secondary question, do you have an opinion/recommendation for the best ribbon to enhance this arangement for wide-dispersal for the top end, or do you believe the standard dome would be best suited for this?
I've already spoke with a friend of mine about using his shop to build this and he too is interested. He is just now setting up his cinema and was enthused with the info I shared about your designs. This is sounding like a perfect Christmas present for the family to me

1: You can do the box ported or sealed. I'd go ported if you don't plan on using a subwoofer in the system or you want to cross lower than 60hz to a subwoofer. The ports can be a few inches away from objects as long as there is room to breathe.

2: There will be a different crossover with a ribbon. I can do that for you--however, the dome has lower distortion at the frequency that I crossed over the design and that helps to minimize lobing that most MTM ribbon designs will encounter. The ribbon has poor vertical dispersion in general, but some feel the sparkle on the top end is worth the compromise. Ribbons have excellent horizontal dispersion.

Jed

[Bohnzy]

Looking at the specs for the TB and the NeoCD2.0 it seems that one would x/o the mids at about 4 to 5K, is that correct in your opinion?
What about just "adding" the ribbon to the current config, possible? I have a spare ESS 3" Heil.

Oh and I deploy twin subs already so there is plenty of bass in the room so I guess I'd go non-ported.
Thanks again,

[Clearwave]

Looking at the specs for the TB and the NeoCD2.0 it seems that one would x/o the mids at about 4 to 5K, is that correct in your opinion?
What about just "adding" the ribbon to the current config, possible? I have a spare ESS 3" Heil.

Oh and I deploy twin subs already so there is plenty of bass in the room so I guess I'd go non-ported.
Thanks again,

Off axis is going to be an important design parameter and adding the NeoCD2.0 or ESS to a system that already employs a tweeter will only add interference at the top end and produce severe comb filtering effects (FR cancelations in the top end). The NeoCD2.0 will only have decent horizontal response with very poor vertical response, and crossing that high will create a null around the crossover point when sitting off axis -- given the far center to center distances between the tweeter and midranges. It is generally not recommended to have a "supertweeter" for designs where off axis performance is of high priority for these reasons.

[Bohnzy]

OK, makes sense, it seems like without curving the front of the cc there really is no improvement to be made to better adapt the 4cc to my environment/dream list.
So do you have a 4cc in black ash that I could demo?
I'm still reading and re-searching posts (mostly yours and kingpin's it seems).
It would be nice if there was a link from here back to your design site, just a thought.
Thanks again.

BTW what part of the world are you in?

[Clearwave]

BTW what part of the world are you in?

I'm in western NY.